From Where I Sit: Episode 6 With Phil Wahba Transcript

Tom McGee: 

Welcome to From Where I Sit. I'm your host, Tom McGee, president and CEO of ICSC, the preeminent membership organization serving the commercial real estate and retail industries. Each episode, I'll be joined by top experts to explore the trends impacting communities and commerce and the spaces where people shop, dine, work, play, and gather.  

I'm excited to introduce Phil Wahba, a senior writer at Fortune to the latest episode of From Where I Sit. 

Following years on the retail beat, with award-winning coverage highlighting everything from big-box retailers and profiles on the top retail executives to deep dives into department stores and developments, Phil now focuses on how executives at the world’s top brands are approaching leadership and business strategy.  

So, I look forward to our conversation Phil, we’ve known each other for years. Phil, welcome to the show. 

Phil Wahba: 

Thank you very much, Tom. Good to be here. 

Tom:  

We had a brief conversation just before we began the podcast about retail and people's level of interest in retail and the retail industry. It's something that everyone has a viewpoint in, interacts with, etc. You have had a particularly interesting seat for a number of years being a leading voice in the retail industry as a journalist. Just talk a little bit about how you've seen retail evolve since you began as a retail beat reporter to where it is today because it's been quite a journey. Maybe summarize how you’ve see that evolution taking place. 

Phil:  

I think retail is almost unrecognizable on a bunch of levels compared to 2009, which is when I started covering it at Reuters. E-commerce, there's less consumer loyalty than there was. There's more choice. 2009 was tough economically and there are always ups and downs. But I think in some ways, some things haven't changed at all. A brand can't thrive unless it makes clear to shoppers what it stands for, what it's there for, how it's different from others. People still love personal connection and very few retailers that are successful now are doing it solely in one channel or the other. I would say, I think young people like in-store shopping much more than they're given credit for. I really believe that. But it just, the consumer is much less patient with garbage or bad service than they used to be. And I think there's more churn. And so, a lot of brands have a good reservoir of goodwill that they can tap into, but really beware. Don't screw up too often. 

Tom: 

Some things are timeless. And I think to your point, to be an effective retailer, whether you're online or in-store, you need to be good at merchandising, you need to have competitive pricing. And most importantly, to your point, you need to be good at service. Customer service really matters and differentiating yourself. When you and I met each other, we were in the midst of the narrative around the retail armageddon, the retail apocalypse, etc., the demise of physical retail. Nobody was going to go to a store anymore. You mentioned the younger generation enjoying physical shopping. We'll delve a little bit more into that, but why do you think physical retail has persevered in all of this? Despite the conversation, despite the pandemic when there was a period of time when nobody could go to a store yet here we are today where the demand for physical space is excess of supply of physical space, in many cases in physical retail. How do you square all that? 

Phil: 

It's pretty obvious that people like to go to a store so that they're going to get good service. People love to deal with a store clerk who knows what they're talking about. We're talking about discretionary spending. When a place has more staples, it's nice to know when somebody can tell you quickly that the toothpaste is in aisle three. And hopefully it's not locked up. So, I think it took retailers a while to figure it out that it's not one or the other, it's both. And so, you will go to a physical retailer for fun and try new things and for many, the experience or for the convenience of it. And sometimes that same retailer, you'll be like, I just don't have time or this is replenishment. I think that the, the “or” conversation, O-R, really never made sense. It, it's gotta be both and people will always appreciate the fun of in-person retail, but what they won't appreciate is if stores are garbage, but so is the website. 

That's really, and I think in a way a lot of the retailers that have thrived and survived the so-called retail apocalypse, I would call it the weeding out. It's a natural churn. Weak companies disappear and the strong ones get stronger and new ones appear. If I have to look back at it, I would say ultimately consumers are better served now than they were 15 years ago because it took a while, but I think the traditional physical retailers that are still here are really killing it online as well as in stores. 

Tom: 

You mentioned consumers having more choice today. And there are some exceptions to this, that Amazon's predominantly a e-commerce player. There are other retailers that are predominantly physical retail, but generally speaking, you've got to be good at both. You have to be able to serve your customer, whether you're in the physical channel or the digital channel. And to consumers, it really doesn't matter. There's only one channel, that's called the consumer channel and they want to be served. 

How do retailers define success in your mind? How do you feel like retailers today define success versus how they might've defined success 10 years ago in a much less complicated world than exists right now? 

Phil: 

Sometimes I feel it's like survival and certainly Wall Street has its own parameters for what it considers success. But I think that the biggest mark of success is loyalty and frequency and keeping your customers. If we can name names on this podcast, I have to tell you, to me, Costco is the gold standard on so many levels. You buy staples there, but it's so much fun. The treasure hunt, e-commerce is peerless. Who knew you could be so passionate about a retailer that sells toilet paper in bulk? But you can also get luxury creams by Estee Lauder, sometimes, if you're lucky. I really think that they're very good example of what to do.  

Wall Street's constant demands aside, I would say the loyalty of customers would be for me the biggest gauge of success because then that's what you can tap into when you hit a rough spot and you know that your customers will stick to you. 

Tom: 

You can name names and the Costco is a good one. And who doesn't love walking around a Costco and, to your point around the treasure, the samples, the thing—you walk in there, assuming you're going to buy only a certain number of things. And you walk out there with a platform full of stuff.  

Talk about technology a little bit. Back in 2009, e-commerce had begun to really gain momentum, but the level of technological investment that retailers need to make today is at a different level than it was back then. And how do they balance that investing from a technology perspective versus investing in the store? How do they make those decisions in regards to capital allocation most effectively? 

Phil: 

I think 10 years ago, there was just so much pressure to catch Amazon. And if you recall, Target and Walmart, among others, had created these tech incubator type places, retail tech, in Silicon Valley to dazzle Wall Street. And then what it turns out is, first of all, technology isn't just for e-commerce. Technology is for dry things like inventory management and tracking things.  

And just today, Tapestry reported incredible numbers for Coach, and that's because they have this amazing database of customers to whom they can send personalized offers. It really runs the gamut. Technology is not a panacea. It can't be neglected, but it's also not a panacea. But again, it has to be a mix of everything. Yes, beautify your stores. Yes, have tech that supports your commerce, but also have tech that allows your store workers to be more efficient when they're reshelving for example. 

Tom:  

One of our recent podcasts, we had Colleen Baum, who's a partner at McKinsey and a supply chain expert. We talked about just the importance of the supply chain in the retail industry. It's a complicated, complex system to take a product from source to shelf. And back to the basics, if you don't have the merchandise, you're not going to make the sell. Merchandising is key. What surprises you most about the retail industry today? Just given where it's at versus where it was when you began. What surprises you about the industry? 

Phil: 

I always thought that the threat of e-commerce was overstated. So, I'm not entirely surprised, but I think a lot of people would be surprised at how healthy and robust so much of non-Amazon retail is. And a lot of them are thriving. There's some that are struggling. I think by and large, the sector has risen to the challenge presented by Amazon. They've made their e-commerce excellent as well. I just think everybody's spurred each other to get better at what they do and the consumer is the winner. 

Tom: 

The consumer is the winner, but retail is a fiercely competitive industry. To your point, there's always winners and losers. If you go back and look 25 years ago, a lot of different names were in the list of the top retailers and 25 years before that, there were a lot of different names. So, retail continues to evolve. If you look out five years from now, are there certain trends beginning to take hold today, we're going to be talking about in a very common way five years from now? 

Phil: 

I certainly think the role of AI in searching for products, and I think there will be more changes to how people search, do research for products, but I also think that who knows where all this technology is going. People are people, there's always going be people coming to the store and browsing and looking with their eyes and seeing things. What I hope, also this would be good for the environment, is I do hope that companies will improve, it's been a goal for a long time, but improve demand forecasting and having a better handle on how much to order and how much to produce, so that lead times will shrink. A lot of retailers are trying to do that for a competitive advantage, but I think it would also be good for the environment. So, I do think in a few years from now, retailers will be more precise with how much and what they offer consumers. 

Tom: 

You see AI playing a role in that? You mentioned AI. 

Phil: 

Absolutely. I think like in a lot of other things, AI is going to play a role that is not as obvious. It's going to be behind the scenes. This ChatGPT stuff, whatever. But the real stuff will be, it's going to help the technologists do the backend stuff better. 

Tom:  

It going to happen, to help business processes, make them more efficient and so forth. We're all looking for that—the sizzle of what's going to happen in front of our eyes and in a consumer engagement perspective. And I assume AI will have an impact upon that, but a lot of it will have to do with what happens in the supply chain and so forth to your point around having shorter supply windows and greater availability.  

Let's talk about that for a second because one of the things, Colleen, when I was speaking to her, had about supply chain. We've talked a lot about the pandemic and how that had an impact upon supply chain, sourcing a product and so forth. Your perspective about the pandemic itself, which was a big inflection point for the economy as a whole, for society as a whole, and certainly retail. What are the lasting impacts in your mind around the retail industry from the pandemic? 

Phil: 

When you look at some of the results of the big box stores, a lot of them held on to the gains that they made during the pandemic. And I think that is a challenge to a lot of specialty retailers. If they are so, they're really out of luck. Some of them continue to kill it. Abercrombie and Fitch continues to grow, it’s bonkers, how well that company's doing, right? But look at Costco, Target, Walmart, they really held on to a lot of the business they gained. 

There's less time for browsing and going to a million different stores and there's like a cascade of effects. I worry about the drugstore chains and a couple of the big box chains. So much merchandise being locked up, you're really taking away the reason to go to the store. And then that can have all sorts of knockoff effects as well.  

The pandemic also, I think, anyway, it's just my sense. It didn't really do our collective manners any good. And I do think I still see a lot of people being rude to store workers and it always breaks my heart. And I hope that's not a disincentive for people to go into the field. Working in a store is fun if you're working with customers and it's fun. But if you go in and you're going to be insulted by somebody because of a decision that management made, then it's not cool. So, I do worry sometimes that the coarseness in our culture makes life harder for store workers than it needs to be. 

Tom: 

There's a couple of things in your comments I agree with, just common courtesy.  

Phil: 

How passe.  

Tom: 

Hopefully that's something that should be timeless, treating each other with respect and kindness and courtesy. You mentioned retailers locking things up behind plexiglass. One of the challenges that's facing the industry is retail crime, organized retail crime. We, along with many other organizations, are trying to lead the charge and getting legislation or enforcement of local laws around that. It certainly does impact the customer experience and sense of safety too, right? If you see something locked behind plexiglass, you're not necessarily going to feel as comfortable as you would in a different circumstance.  

One of the other aspects of the pandemic that struck me and you mentioned three retailers there that I think do a really good job of that, Walmart, Target, Costco, and there are others that have really done a good job of using their stores to support online sales and vice versa. Right. I mean, back to that integrated model, they're using their physical store footprint as a competitive advantage to enable their e-commerce business as well. Do you see that the same way? 

Phil: 

I, yeah, I think so too. And I remember in the first year after the pandemic, I wrote a lot of stories about how Petco was one of them. Kohl’s was another. Curbside pickup. We had been testing it, then all of a sudden this happens and you have to implement it and scale it across the chain. And so, I think some retailers who were smart were able to use that kind of jolt to the system to make their decision-making faster and not have paralysis by analysis and all these cliches stop them. And hopefully for the best in class companies. it really sped up innovation pace and changed the culture. 

Tom: 

And you've alluded to one thing and we'll touch upon that in a second, paralysis by analysis. To my mind, the pandemic was a great opportunity for leaders to step up and had to make decisions was oftentimes with very limited information. I want to touch upon that because that's, I know one of your, your areas of expertise and passions now is leadership. But one final thing I want to talk about before we leave retail and you mentioned it, is Gen Z, the younger generation. We've done a lot of studying around Gen Z and our data would support one of the things that you initially said was that young people enjoy shopping in-person. There might be various reasons around that. They are very technologically savvy. It might be that this is an opportunity to have physical interactions, human interactions when a lot of their life isn't based upon that. Talk about retailers that do a good job or things that they can do effectively to connect with the younger generation, to bring that younger generation, to take that demand for physical interaction and going to a store and really leverage it for growth. What are good retailers doing to attract younger folks into the store? 

Phil: 

You got to make shopping fun. It doesn't necessarily have to be an experience, but some of the brands like Kith and Supreme, you have people lining up around the block before they have drops. And you're like, these are people actually waiting to go into a physical store. Young people. Human nature didn't change because of the rise of technology or because of COVID. I think on the contrary, I see some sort of connection to how the live music business exploded when the worst of the pandemic. 

People want community and they want to have fun together and they want to have memories together. And here in New York, I was in Soho on my way to a meeting and I passed into the RealReal store. RealReal is online mostly and the store was packed. And then you have Glossier and all that. So, if you make the store fun or make the store have or offer things at the store that you can't find easily online, people will come. Young people love community as much as anybody else. 

Tom:  

Yeah. When you were talking about people standing in line outside the store, young people standing in line outside the store. And I think you and I are of a similar generation. You're probably younger than me, Phil, but- 

Phil: 

Not much, ballpark- 

Tom: 

But you might remember when we were younger in high school and remember when concert tickets used to go on sale and people used to line up outside the record store to get concert tickets.  

Phil:  

Yeah. Or outside the venue- 

Tom:  

Or outside the venue or when a new album, actually albums were sold in stores and people waited outside that. It just, it brought back some memories for me.  

Let's delve a little bit now into leadership. And that's an area that you have a lot of experience, a lot of perspective on when talking to a lot of different leaders. The velocity of change is so rapid now. It seems every day there's something new that comes up that requires a leader to respond to react to. But your perspective around how the expectations for leaders have changed in today's world versus go back 10, 15, 20 years ago when at a simpler time, even though it may not have seemed simpler then, what are your thoughts around just the expectations of leadership? 

Phil: 

Command and control and top down doesn't work anymore. And I talked about Abercrombie and Fitch before. So, when Fran Horowitz came in, she had a lot of damage to undo. And she got people engaged and she's a very kind person. But I also think maybe the last couple of years showed us the limits at the other end. The C-suite doesn't need to be, they're not parental figures. I think the style of leadership that works now is somebody who's decisive, but somebody who consults and takes people into account. 

And people need to have a variety of skills, which they've always needed to have that. But coming back to the world of retail, I think when Amazon was rising, everyone was like, my God, we need somebody with operations chops, somebody with tech chops. And I think some retailers went too far in that direction and it was like, it's the end of the merchant prince era. Guess what? You need both. Again, look at Costco, right? Like people are not going to adore a retailer if they don't love what they have to sell and want to keep going. And so, you need people who have all kinds of skillsets. And also it can depend on what state the company is. Sometimes it's the CFO you need when everything's going to help. Successful retail is absolutely right brain, left brain. And I think the CEO needs to have that or needs to be able to, needs to know how to surround him or herself with the complementary skills. 

Tom: 

You said decisive, but collaborative. I think that's a really good description. It's tough to walk that line because when do you transition from the collaborative stage to the decisive stage? Let's delve in a little bit deeper, as leaders come from different backgrounds, different experiences, everybody who sits in the C-suite or the CEO role didn't necessarily come up the same kind of pathway. But are there characteristics of the leaders that you've spoken to that they've had some similarities in the types of challenges or the types of roles that they've had to fill that prepared them to be successful in that corner office? 

Phil: 

You need a mix of skills. So yes, you need some operations. You need some finance wizardry. You need merchandising. But I will say some of it though is personality traits. And I think we're in an era where being a showboat is really antithetical to succeeding. I'm going to put one CEO on the spot because last year I got the chance to profile him. Doug McMillon at Walmart. He runs the biggest company in the world. Complex. Been very successful. And he is the polar opposite of a showboat and very kind with people. Lesser people could have been arrogant with that kind of success. And I think that's a very important personality trait because the reality of it is that retail is disproportionately labor intensive. When you think of the head counts in these companies in relation to the revenue compared to other industries like tech, you need to have buy-in from your tens or hundreds of thousands of workers. And I think being a showboat or making it about you does not work.  

It's a bit of a cliche, but I do think that a successful CEO in retail, but everywhere now needs to have a higher EQ than they might have half a generation ago even. 

Tom: 

In Doug's case, he's setting a great example for his employees, treating his employees with respect and courtesy, which we talked about earlier as a timeless value, but also demonstrating how he would like them to treat their customers as well I would imagine. 

Phil: 

The one thing I'm fascinated with is which retailers got pulled into the culture wars and which didn't. And I think if your CEO is not a showboat and just kind of, it's show, don't tell, then they got spared. But I think if you saw a few CEOs, I won't say who, but some of them could be a little bit more visible than they needed to be. And then they got caught in the crosshairs of the cultural discussions in this country. And I think it's again, show, don't tell, show your employees the way you run the business is ethical and inclusive and you don't need to shout it on the... Do you know what mean? Actions speak louder than words. 

Tom:  

I was going to say that, let actions speak louder than words. To that point around action, and as I know you agree, the velocity of change is so rapid and significant now because of technology and a whole host of things, but there seemed to be the world pre-pandemic. And now there's the post-pandemic world and the pandemic was right in the middle of that period of time. And some leaders did a really good job of navigating through uncharted territory because we hadn't had a pandemic in over a hundred years and some were more challenged during that period of time in navigating it.  

Were there certain characteristics about leaders that did a good job in the pandemic of leading their company, leading their people, of maintaining a level of balance and, to some degree, success during it versus those that maybe didn't do as good of a job? 

Phil:  

I think, consistency in messaging and doing something that is seen as caring and helpful to employees. These people were frontline. A lot of us were a little bored and isolated at home, but at least we weren't in public hoping that wasn't the day where we get COVID or that wasn't the day where we get screamed at by somebody who had to wear a mask and didn't want to. So, I think consistency in what was told to employees was very important, very successful. And I think a lot of that also stayed in people's minds, the consumers’ minds, companies that had shown care for employees and for them. Again, Costco is an example, but outside of retail, if you remember, Delta kept its middle seats empty the longest of any major airline. And for a lot of people, that in their mind meant, yeah, that's the airline that cared about safety. And I would argue that it's something that is benefiting them to this day. So, I do think like in the darkest days, yeah, everybody wants to get out of the abyss, but you have to take a long-term view and your employees are the most important thing you have. It's, I kind of laugh when they say these on these earnings calls, but you don't get anywhere without employees that are satisfied and engaged and care. 

Tom: 

Employees make the engine go. They are the ultimate brand ambassadors. To that point around employees and it strikes me as, we’re in an interesting period of time. We talked about this as it relates to retailers and consumers, but also for leaders. If they look at their employee base, you have multiple generations that comprise the employee workforce today. And those generations, at least in my mind, have gone through different life experiences, more dramatic, different life experiences that perhaps 

20, 30 years ago where you have a Baby Boomer generation that grew up in a different environment than Gen Z did as it relates to technology, etc., versus the Millennial generation that has had some challenges, starting their career through the global financial crisis, etc. And then the lost Gen X generation, which people forget about, they always talk about Baby Boomers, then jump to Millennials and forget about us that are in the Gen X generation. As a leader myself, it's a struggle to try to connect with different generations who can process the same issue or challenge very differently based upon those very different life experiences and the environment upon which they grew up and from a media, technology and so forth standpoint. How do you see better leaders navigating that versus others? 

Phil: 

I think if you have to look at what people have in common and their experiences, that's where like command and control doesn't work anymore. And I think the whole return to office debate has been a very good example of sometimes a miscommunication of something that's not that complicated. Young people actually—it's funny, earlier today I was chatting with a young reporter who wanted some advice and he said, he works remotely in Tennessee. And he said, I wish I were up there in New York so I could interact with everybody and talk to all the reporters and so he's a 25-year-old guy.  

So young people crave that. They crave community as well. They crave—but they also want flexibility. And so sometimes I think it's a little bit ridiculous to—that's how leaders in their 50s and 60s have all seen the world. Well, you go to the office. Okay. Do we need to all be five days a week? Every company will have a different answer, but I think people want flexibility. And I think I personally don't think people—humans are humans and I don't know that we're all that different from one generation to the next when you really boil it down. Not on the important things. 

Tom: 

Everybody wants to be respected and valued.  

And listening to you speak, it dawned on me the phrase omnichannel again. And in some respects, the work environment is having an omnichannel moment, right? It's not really just working remotely and it's not necessarily just working in the office. It's both. You need to, and you need to be able to offer it depending upon the circumstances effectively in both cases.  

I want to delve a little bit about Gen Z. I'm a big fan of the Gen Z generation. I am biased. have two wonderful Gen Z daughters and I see them and their friends as incredibly hardworking, incredibly conscientious, super socially conscious, but also ambitious. They want the same types of things that previous generations did, but they may go about it a little bit differently. And when you talk to leaders about working with multiple generations, any observations about that particular generation? Gen Z, who is really rising into the workforce today, and I think having a big and positive impact upon work culture. Any observations about them in particular? 

Phil: 

Well, just like everybody before them, they want to succeed. Their way of going about it is differently, but I think they also crave guidance and mentoring and the chance to do new things, but they don't necessarily, they're less willing to do pro forma things that we might've been in our twenties or FaceTime at the office. Remember, we've all worked in offices and we always knew there was a few colleagues. Wow. They're here, but they're not here. So, I think again, to go back to my earlier point, human nature hasn't changed. 

It's a bit of my pet peeve when people—the whole discussion again around return to office, kids today, they don't want to work. And I remember specifically hearing that being said about my generation and my 20s. It's the circle of life, my generation, the song by The Who, whatever you want to call it, but it's a classic thing for people to complain about young people. 

Tom:  

I totally agree with that. I think that's just what happens in the circle of life. And people do that. I, again, I think this young generation is remarkable and I think they had so much to offer. 

Phil: 

Another one of my pet peeves, nothing to do with retail. I'm not a Swiftie, I'm just not. But to see this woman filling stadiums with live music and all these young people going bananas to go see her, I'm like, and I, some of my peers, dudes in their 50s, like mocking it. I'm like, they're going to see live music and isn’t that what you all want, is for people to enjoy live music and community and instruments that are being played? It's really funny because if—I won't go into the music I like, but I remember when I was in my 20s, my tastes were being widely mocked. I spare young people today.  

Anyway, all that to say just, we all have to respect what each generation is going through and where they're coming from because everybody wants to work. Everybody wants to be honest. Everybody wants to prosper. 

Tom: 

Having two daughters of Gen Z age, they're Swifties and she's cultural phenomenon- 

Phil: 

Are you? 

Tom: 

Like you, I totally respect what she's done and accomplished. I do think she's super talented.  

Phil:  

But a little over-exposed now, right? 

Tom:  

I think that happens to every artist when they have their moment, but she's very talented and I'm sure she'll be at the Superbowl this upcoming weekend. 

Phil:  

Are we rooting for the Eagles on this podcast or are we neutral? 

Tom: 

I probably should be neutral, but I'm going to say I had the privilege meeting Andy Reid and interviewing Andy Reid at our big ICSC LAS VEGAS conference a year and a half ago and just thought he was exceptional. And I'm a huge Patrick Mahomes fan. I think he's a generational talent and a wonderful player. I think it would be amazing if the Chiefs won their third straight Superbowl. There's a reason no team has done it. However, it's super, super hard, but being from the New York area, I'm not going to root for the Eagles.  

Let's talk a little bit about, in the moments we have left and you've been in the media industry and journalism for a long time. And that industry has also gone through a lot of change, whether it's print journalism, television journalism, the rise of social media. Is the media industry having its own little moment, so to speak, and your perspective around that? 

Phil: 

I think about this a lot. And in fact, to my editor's annoyance, I do see a parallel with a lot of retail. Every media outlet has a brand, has a reputation. And I think the pressures in the last few years have led to some, the temptation, that some fell into that temptation of putting out kind of garbage-y stories that hurt your reputation, or they can be the temptation to do that. So, I think a lot of media outlets back in the day, including Fortune, missed the shift to digital. Does that sound familiar? And then had to scramble. And then finally lurched back into the work. But I would say like in the case of Fortune, our bread and butter has always been in-depth analysis. And that's still what serves us best. And I think in a way, it's—the commonality is, if you remember what your brand proposition is and what people turn to you for and you stick to it, you'll be okay. 

You can't wreck your brand or have part of your brand be trash and then the rest excellent and then expect people are going to not notice it. We've seen that with some of the affordable luxury brands that really went bonkers with the off-price, hoping people wouldn't notice. And then all of a sudden, I mean I would, to come back to Tapestry, Coach, it took them a few years, but they're absolutely a hundred percent back to having their stellar reputation and brand image. And, but it would have been great not to damage it in the first place. So that is my message to all media outlets. 

Tom:  

As a journalist, how has it impacted you and just in regards to you going through your craft? Has it changed the way you approach stories or crafting stories or approach interviews?  

Phil:  

Yeah. I can't just be writing stories. I also have to be multimedia and I also have to think of video and writing short stories and writing long stories. But the irony is that my in-depth stories always do much better traffic-wise and subscription generation-wise than a here today gone tomorrow story. So, from my perch, chasing traffic doesn't work. It's just really good stories that other people don't have that works. 

Tom: 

So data, fact-based data-rich, content-rich- 

Phil: 

Yeah. Insight-rich.  

Tom:

It's good to hear that. That still draws a lot of traffic as opposed to just a catchy headline. If you were to get advice to brands that are out there that want to tell their story, that want to tell, that want to build their brand, are there any things that you would advise them in regards to the use of media? 

Phil:  

First of have a good story because like, really a good story to tell because if sometimes it's window dressing, be authentic and be upfront. You can't really BS your way to good coverage because eventually numbers speak for themselves and results speak for themselves.  

Also, please don't media train your executives to death. We need usable quotes. Sometimes they end up sounding like automatons and really media trained executives know how to give you something thoughtful and that you can use and without getting in trouble with IR, which I know is always their number one concern. 

Tom:  

I'm sure that's true. I'm sure that's true. Phil, we're just about out of time. Is there any final thoughts for the listeners around retail, leadership, media, any of the topics that we covered? 

Phil: 

The narrative around retail got a little simplistic. I think there's a lot of lessons in retail for other industries, which is don't become complacent, but also don't chase fads. Just remember what you're here for, what your brand is for. And that doesn't mean you can't evolve with it, but be what you're good at and keep evolving it, but stay to your core. It's my favorite thing to write about is turnaround stories, because it just shows people make mistakes. Companies can have a lot of lives, a lot of lives. 

Tom:  

Retail is the ultimate consumer facing industry so in so many ways, it's always going to be at the tip of change, right? Because the consumer is driving the change and they're really front and center and other industries now are having those retail moments, whether it's office, whether it's media, etc. And I think you're wise to suggest they need to look at what worked and what didn't work through a retail perspective.  

Phil, what a joy to talk to you. We covered a lot of ground and really appreciate the opportunity to hear your perspective on a whole number of topics. 

Phil:  

Great, it was lovely to connect, Tom. Thank you. 

Tom:  

Please follow and rate this podcast five stars on Apple and Spotify and share it with others that might find it interesting. Thanks for listening.